The following three interviews were conducted in Goris, Armenia, on December 2 with Kariné and Albert, refugees from Artsakh, as well as with Carmen, director of the Centre Culturel Francophone de Goris, who provided the live translation and whom we thank for her support for these interviews.
For the record, 100,000 Armenians were driven from their ancestral homeland of Nagorno-Karabakh, or Artsakh, by the force of an Azerbaijani military offensive on September 19 and 20, 2023, after a blockade lasting over 9 months! Today, half of the refugees are in Yerevan, the capital, and the others are spread across various provinces, including Syunik in the south of the country. Of these refugees, 60,000 were farmers and stockbreeders.
Interview with Kariné.
Alain Boinet: Hello Madam, could you introduce yourself to our readers?
Kariné: My name is Kariné, and I’m Albert’s mother. I have three children: two daughters and a son. All my children are married. One of my daughters lives in Goris, and my other daughter has also been displaced from Artsakh. Then there’s my son Albert who lives in Goris. I now have nine grandchildren.
AB: Before you fled to Armenia, what was your life like in Nagorno-Karabakh/Artsakh?
Kariné: Before the war I worked in a store, but the pay wasn’t very good. Then I started working in a school as a cleaner. After the war, in 2020 (editor’s note: the 44-day war), we came to Goris and stayed for a year and six months. Then we went back to Artsakh. I started working at this school because the principal and teachers were very friendly. On September 19, the day of the war, I was at school. When the bombing started, I stayed at school for four hours. The children were at school too. The staff asked us to go down to the first floor. Then, in the evening, we were asked to go to the government building. My two little children were asleep. We got some clothes from the Russian military. No news from Albert. We were asked to leave the Arstakh and I was crying because I had no news of my son Albert. I didn’t want to leave Artsakh without hearing from him.
Then Albert sent a message saying they were in a blockade with his friends but couldn’t get out. I passed on this information to the head of the Russians, to people in the government. But they told me not to worry because they could manage. In the end, I don’t know how, but Albert and his three friends managed to escape the blockade through the mountains. One day, my daughter told me she had good news and announced that Albert was alive, crying. The second time, we were displaced in the same way, without clothes or anything, we left our country.
AB: What are you doing now? How do you see the future?
Kariné: The future is peace. The future doesn’t depend on us.
AB : How were you welcomed in Armenia?
Kariné: I’m very grateful for all the help we’ve received, and I’d love to stay in the Syunik region. How can I not thank the people who helped us when before we had nothing, not even a mattress, and now we have a lot of things. We didn’t have any clothes, so people donated clothes and lots of other things. But in Artsakh our way of life was very good, my salary was 120,000 dram, Albert’s was 400,000 dram. Our life there was really good.
AB: I tasted a “jingalov hats” pancake that you sell in your little stall on the square in Goris, can you tell us about it?
Kariné : We don’t rent this little store, it was offered to us. I just pay the electricity. I manage to sell my products and buy butter, meat and eggs for the children. So it’s good, it works all the same.
AB: How are things with your family?
Kariné: Last night when I got home, my daughter-in-law told me that this had become our little business. Who can we ask to give us 1,000 dram, 5,000 dram, so that we can buy butter or meat? My daughter-in-law told me she was grateful for what I was doing. Then I can buy sweets for my grandchildren!
AB : Do your grandchildren go to school?
Kariné : Not yet, the grandchildren don’t go to school, they’re too young. But the eldest goes to a leisure center from time to time. The others are also very small: 3, 1 and a half and the youngest is 18 days old.
AB: If we could send a message to the President of the French Republic. What would you say to him?
Kariné: My first message would be to have a house so that we can stay here. But I can’t imagine going back to where we came from, we’ve been moved twice, I can’t imagine a third time, it’s not safe there. But really, life was very good there. Even the jingalov hats I made there didn’t taste the same, they were more delicious, better than here. The soil over there isn’t the same. The taste isn’t the same. Even potatoes and water taste different.
AB: How old are you?
Kariné : I’m 59. I’m not very old, but I’ve known a lot of pain and suffering.
AB: It’s peaceful here. I hope you’ll soon have a home and be able to live in peace in Armenia.
Kariné: I have a request to make. If ever there are people who can also help my daughter. She’s not doing very well. When Azeri drones were flying over Goris, her 5-year-old son became frightened and could no longer speak properly. We suggested he see a specialist to take care of him, but you have to pay 4,000 dram (editor’s note: about 9 euros) for about an hour.
But as we don’t have the means to pay, it’s a bit complicated. On September 13, 2022, there were drones flying over Goris and every moment he felt as if they were going to fall on his head. This created a lot of fear in him. One day he was playing outside with some other children and the moment they saw the drones they all ran off except him, who was left alone and has been very scared ever since.
AB: I don’t have an immediate solution, but I can talk about it. Perhaps we should check here in Goris with Médecins du Monde, who sometimes provide psychosocial help.
Kariné: Thank you.
Alain Boinet: Thank you Kariné.
Interview with Albert.
AB: Hello Albert, and thank you for this interview. Could you tell us a bit about your background?
Albert: My family and I used to live in Hartashen in Artsakh, a village in the Hadrut region. We were moved to the capital Stepanakert in 2020, just after the war when the Azeris occupied Hadrut. I was wounded during the war and had to undergo an operation. After that, the state gave my family and me a house in Stepanakert. We started to live there, but we had nothing and couldn’t get our belongings back.
In 2023, we moved to Goris in the Syunik province of Armenia, having already been displaced twice. Since then, my family and I have lived in Goris. We would like to thank all the associations and people who are helping us so that we can continue to live in Goris. I work in Goris, but I’d love to have a house here, to have pigs, chickens, something so that we can continue to develop everything we have now so that we can continue to live here.
AB: What happened for you on September 19 and 20 in Artsakh, and what did you do?
Albert: I don’t want to remember what I experienced, it was really dangerous. What I can say is that I spent seven days in an Azeri blockade. I was there with some friends, we were far from our families. Fortunately, one of my friends had a cell phone, so I was able to talk to my family a bit. On the seventh day, we saw that there was no way out of the blockade. We called the government to come and get us out of this place. We received no help. So we started fleeing into the mountains to Stepanakert. On September 19, 2023, all the inhabitants of Artsakh left their lives, their homes. That’s when we started to leave Artsakh, and maybe it’s thanks to God that we arrived in Goris.
AB: Can you tell us about your family?
Albert: My family consists of eight people. I have three daughters and on September 10 my fourth child was born, a son. We also live with my mother and father, so in total, my family is made up of eight people.
AB: Before you had to flee Artsakh and take refuge in Armenia, what did you do?
Albert: In Hadrout, I was a soldier, but we also had fields where we grew wheat. We had chickens, pigs, sheep, we had almost everything, ducks too. My mother worked at the school, my father was a driver and my wife was the school secretary. In the village of Shosh in the Askeran region, we always had chickens from which we sold the eggs. We’re a hard-working family. I was still doing my military service in the army.
AB: How did your arrival in Armenia go, and how are you living today?
Albert: The welcome was good, normal. As soon as we arrived in Goris, my daughter welcomed us into her home, as she was married in Goris. Later, we rented another apartment in the old part of Goris and every month we pay 100,000 dram (ed. note: about 220 euros). I’m very grateful to all the people who stood by us. Now my family and I prepare Jingalov hats, a kind of pancake, a speciality of Artsakh.
AB: How do you see the future?
Albert: I’d like peace to prevail in our country. I’d like to have a house and a job. I don’t want to have to rely on someone every day. I hope to have my own house, my own garden and be able to rely only on myself. We’re a hard-working family, we’re used to working. But my main wish is for peace to prevail in our country.
AB: Have you received any help since your arrival?
Albert: Right from the start, the state gave us food, diapers for the children and we also received 100,000 dram (ed. 220 euros), then 40,000 dram, then 10,000 dram. Then for six months in a row, the state gave us 50,000 dram to rent a house. After that, other associations made other donations. For example, some French associations donated fridges, washing machines and folding beds. My parents haven’t received their pensions yet. Now I’m relying on myself too.
AB: Where would you like to live and work?
Albert: I’d prefer to stay in the Syunik region here in Goris, maybe in the village of Verishen, which is near Goris. I’d like to find a house and stay there.
AB: I believe you have health problems?
Albert: I’m 34 years old, I was wounded. It was very difficult, and I’m still suffering from the after-effects. I live with fear, stress and neurotic gestures. Sometimes I think I’m going to fall, my head’s spinning. When I was wounded, I went to the soldiers’ home for treatment and bandages. To this day, I still have problems with my leg.
AB: Do you have any children?
Albert: My eldest daughter is Kaliné Balyan, aged 4. My second daughter is Iana Balyan, aged 3. My third daughter is Ariana Balyan, aged 1 and a half. And my son Boris Balyan was born on November 10, 2023, so he’s about a month old.
AB: How do you see the future?
Albert: I apologize for telling you too much about my problems. In any case, what I’d like is to have a house so that I can start working and, even afterwards, be able to help others. I’m not looking for government help. The most important thing for me is to have a house, just that now.
AB: Where do you want to live now?
Albert: I don’t want to go to Yerevan (editor’s note: capital of Armenia) because to go there you have to be rich, and I prefer it here anyway, I feel good here. When I was doing my military service, I left my machine in Fizouli. Then when we were in Stepanakart (ed. capital of Artsakh) the state asked us to go and equip the house because they had given us 3 million dram (ed. about 6700 euros) and our way of life, our life was very good there, we really lived as we should.
AB: I’ve heard of rehabilitation or house-building programs for refugees.
Albert: Yes, I’ve heard about this project that’s underway. The rehabilitation project in Goris, Armenia. But if I’ve understood correctly, they’ve started looking at my relatives’ files. That is, asking them for documents to build a file and be able to give houses to my friends.
AB: I can tell you that the Fond Arménien de France is carrying out an evaluation mission for a house-building program, with land and help to revive farming and livestock. Yesterday, we saw 13 new houses built in Shurnuk, with a plot of land, a small building for hens, pigs and sheep, and access to drinking water for the village.
We were recently at the Syunik prefecture in Kapan, where we were told that there was a government program at national level to buy houses and rehabilitate them. These houses will then be distributed among refugees who will have a contract with the terms of ownership. The authorities’ action is also supported by local authorities in France, such as the Auvergne Rhône-Alpes Region, which has signed a partnership agreement for several years to support the Artsakh refugees.
Interview with Carmen.
AB: Hello Carmen, could you introduce us to the cultural center in Goris?
Carmen: With pleasure. I’m Carmen, in charge of the French-speaking cultural center in Goris since 2017. The Francophone center was founded in 2006 thanks to the joint efforts of the municipalities of the city of Vienna, Goris and SPFA (Solidarité Protestante France Arménie). It’s a tripartite cooperation. As you know, Goris has been twinned with the city of Vienna since 1992. Right from the start, we have always carried out educational and cultural projects for francophiles and francophones. There are many other projects, such as the ecological project. We also organize annual intellectual games: “Do you know France? “Do you know Armenia?
We also collaborate with kindergarten number five, which has been working with the House of Armenian Culture in Vienna for 30 years. It’s the only kindergarten where French is compulsorily taught. We also organize other projects on a regular basis. For example, every year we organize a summer camp for 80 francophiles and francophones, during which we run intensive French courses for 4 groups of different levels. The camp lasts 2 months. We also run some very interesting projects with SPFA.
Every year there’s a summer university and all the French-speaking clubs (we used to have 7, but now there’s no longer the Stepanakert club, so we’re down to 6). We get together every year to organize various workshops and meetings, always thanks to SPFA. We also organize exchanges. The city of Vienne invites Armenian French teachers to take part in vocational training courses. There are also civic services: exchanges between young people from Vienne and Goris. Our aim is to develop the French-speaking community in Goris.
Unfortunately, during the war, the principle of our activity changed. In an emergency, there are always things to do: helping refugees, organizing aid, welcoming foreign delegations. It’s as if the center were a crossroads for all associations, including refugees. We’re always ready to help people, to organize distributions. After the war, we continue to organize free French courses.
This year, as there are children from Artsakh studying in Goris schools, they are learning French. We’d also like to have a group just for these children, so that they can learn and improve their level of French. We also organize things to motivate these children to learn French. We can truly say that the center is a hotbed of happiness for people who want to learn French. There are even people who come here just to talk, to decide things for the future. I’m really pleased that with our friends from Vienna, from SPFA, with our French colleagues, with the French Embassy and with other French associations, we’re making progress. Every moment of every day, I thank the people who are with us. What I often say is: sometimes we’re far away, but we’re always with our friends.
I do hope that one day, all the principles we had from the start will be able to endure in the future. But for me, the most important thing is that peace prevails throughout the world. If there’s peace, there are lots of projects, but if there’s war, there are no projects. It’s just peace that we dream about all the time.
AB: How did the arrival of the 100,000 refugees who passed through Goris go?
Carmen: On September 19, SPFA organized a zoom meeting with all the heads of French-speaking clubs. I took part. And while I was there, I was on Facebook and I saw that there was a war going on. I left the call and called my godfather’s daughter who told me “Carmen, it’s war”. It’s something I’d like to never experience again, because we’ve already been through it several times. I immediately started inviting people to our home, to the center. I always said that the doors, as always, were open to refugees. We went to where all the minibuses arrived in Goris. That’s where clothes and food were distributed. There were people coming from Stepanakert, and the road was very long. The journey from Stepanakert to Goris took 40 hours, even 48 hours. People were hungry and cold.
Together with volunteers from Goris, foreign volunteers, our French friends, various associations and the municipality, we were on site. We set up tables to offer tea, coffee, food and other things. By the second day, we had already sensed that they needed other things. Armenians and even French people were calling me to ask “what do they need?” The answer was that they needed everything. Anything and everything. They left their homes just like that, unannounced and with nothing.
Because Goris was so crowded, there was no more room in hotels, host families or bed and breakfasts. Some of the refugees went to other regions and to Yerevan because there was no more room here. The last day was the worst because the refugees had no cars or means of transport, they were just there. We put mattresses there. But fortunately, no one was left homeless. The state, the municipality and the associations were all there. Even the center’s French-speaking staff were on hand to interpret, so that we could keep the lines of communication open. Everyone, young and old, wanted to help them. Fortunately, I don’t know if we succeeded, but in the emergency we did everything we could.
AB: How are things shaping up three months after the arrival of the refugees?
Carmen: Fortunately, some families have already found a way to cope. Some are renting houses, while others are still staying with host families. Some are staying in hotels in Goris, while others have moved to different villages. Some refugees are in border villages. There are refugees who don’t want to stay in the border villages and now their needs are, for example, to equip and renovate their homes, and there’s already this hope of finding a permanent solution. There are people who say I don’t know what my future holds, but there are refugees who have already made up their minds and say “my restaurant is already here, we don’t want to leave this town”.
There are different needs and different decisions. But in any case, I ask this question all the time: “Would you like to live here?” some say yes, some say “here but not in the border villages”. I’m also very happy to learn that refugees already want to work. That’s very important, because it means they’re not always waiting for the state or associations to hand out things.
AB: Carmen, could you introduce us to the Goris Francophone Center?
Carmen: The aim of the center is to develop the French-speaking community, to preserve the values of the French-speaking community in our French-speaking town, because as early as the Soviet era, French was compulsorily taught in all Goris schools. We can truly say that it was a French-speaking town. Now, we’re working hard to maintain these values. Children who learn French at school come to the Francophone center to perfect their level.
There are different levels, different ages, different groups who come to take part in these courses free of charge. In fact, these are already intensive courses lasting two and a half hours, all year round. Our aim is to maintain and improve the level of French of the students who come to the center. We start teaching French from the age of 8 up to 100. There are French volunteers, exchanges and the opportunity to experience a trip to Vienna at the request of our twin city. This exchange is very important.
AB: How does the twinning between Goris and Vienna work?
Carmen: Within the twinning framework, there are always exchanges, official and unofficial visits. There are always projects that are very important for us and for our Viennese friends. And, as you know, it’s very important to communicate regularly with the French to improve our language skills. For example, every year SPFA organizes trips where they invite us to be part of their delegation. This allows us to take part in the trip and discover our country at the same time. Because it’s free and so we can communicate with the French.
There are a lot of great projects that we’re always happy to take part in, and we always wait for new ones to come along so that we can get involved. That way we can change our way of life too, so we’re not thinking about the war all the time. It’s good that they keep projects like this going. I’m always grateful to our friends and to the associations that work with us on these projects. We’re always ready to collaborate with people who want to cooperate with us.
AB: Carmen, can you tell us about your partnership with local authorities?
Carmen: Every collaboration is very important. Goris has been twinned with Vienna since 1992, so it’s already on a city level. There’s also already a partnership agreement between the Syunik region and the Isère department. So we can already carry out a lot of projects and extend the fields. We can say that before it was just Goris and Vienne, now there’s an agreement between the Syunik region and the Auvergne Rhône Alpes region. There are also other communes in our region that are going to twin up with French communes. So there are a lot of twinnings that will open up a lot of possibilities and openings to improve this Franco-Armenian link.
AB: How do the Centres francophones work?
Carmen: The clubs, which are a network, have been working together regularly for 17 years now. We’re always building projects together. I work every day with the SPFA office in Yerevan. If there are needs, if there are problems, we talk all the time. If there are things we see we can do together, we do them together, and that’s good, because we realize that we’re not alone, not isolated in our city.
We know that there are people in different cities who are with us. The idea that we’re not alone is very important, knowing that we have the support of SPFA, the city of Vienna and other associations who are always asking us what we need. Things are going very well.
We’ve never had any problems with each other, and it’s always been nice to meet up, talk things over and come up with ideas for the future. It’s as if we’ve become a French-speaking family, where there’s this very French atmosphere. We always invite French people. I really love my job, I do it with pleasure, with love. The most important thing is love and respect.
AB: Thank you for organizing this meeting and the translation of these interviews with Kariné and Albert.
Carmen: Thank you for your presence, for your commitment to all your efforts, for your support, because France has always been with Armenia, at the side of the Armenian people. I can’t imagine my life without the French-speaking world, and I’m ready to continue working with my French friends until I die, as long as I can help I’ll do so with pleasure.
AB: Thank you Carmen for what you do for refugees and for the French-speaking world, which is obviously close to your heart.
Carmen: Yes, life is a struggle, you have to fight to move forward. You have to fight and build until the end, because there are so many dreams to realize.
Alain Boinet: I wish you every success in realizing those dreams!
Discover:
- Report from Armenia by Alain Boinet
- International solidarity key to integrating Nagorno-Karabakh refugees in Armenia
